by Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE, April 27 – When E. Jean Carroll testified on April 26 on direct examination about Donald Trump allegedly raping her in Bergdorf Goodman's in 1996, then defaming her in 2019, Trump's lawyer Joe Tacopina repeatedly objected.
U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York Judge Louis A. Kaplan denied most objections - and told Tacopina that his client might be subjecting himself to liability under other Federal statutes with his posts on Truth Social (and his son's tweets).
On April 27, after the direct was completed, Tacopina began his cross examination. Objections were repeatedly sustained as he asked why E. Jean Carroll had not gone to the police, how no one was present in Bergdorf's, and more. Inner City Press was there and live tweeted, thread here:
OK - now Carroll v. Trump Day 3, E. Jean Carroll returning to witness stand after Judge Kaplan heard the lawyers in chambers (non public)
Jury entering! Judge Kaplan: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry for the delay, I was working with the lawyers on something that needed to be addressed. Ms. Carroll, you are still under oath. Counsel: Were you assaulted by Les Moonves? Carroll: Yes. He denied it.
Counsel: Have you sued Mr. Moonves for defamation? Carroll: No. He did not defame me, unlike Donald Trump who called me a scam & a Democratic operative. Moonves stayed quiet. Counsel: Who is Natasha Stoynoff? Carroll: A People magazine reporter. Trump was her beat
Counsel: Have you given interviews? Carroll: Yes. CNN. Lawrence O'Donnell. The Washington Post. Counsel: I notice you coughing. I know the water your left is fresh. The right, I'm not sure of. Stick with the left.
Counsel: Your interview with Anderson Cooper. Plaintiff offers 108. Tacopina: No objection. Judge Kaplan: Proceed. Counsel: Did you describe rape as sexy? Carroll: No. Counsel: Let's play it [Video played] Carrolll: "Most people think of rape as being sexy"
Counsel: What did you mean by that? Carroll: That rape is used in our culture in entertainment. Like in Game of Thrones. There are 9 violent rapes, as plot development, to bring in a bigger audience. Even old movies like The Fountainhead portrayed rape on screen
Counsel: Do you believe rape is sexy? Carroll: No. It is one of the most violent things that can happen to a woman or a man. Counsel: Do you believe what Donald Trump did to you was sexy? Carroll: No. Counsel: What did you sue Donald Trump for? Carroll: Defamation
Carroll: He said I was in a conspiracy with the Democratic Party. He said I was trying to sell a book, that I was too ugly to rape. Counsel: When did you think of suing him? Carroll: Journalists would ask me.
Counsel: Any conversation crystalized it? Carroll: My conversation with George Conway. Counsel: Who is he? Carroll: A Republican lawyer. Counsel: Do you know his views of Donald Trump? Carroll: He does not like Donald Trump.
Counsel: Where did you meet him? Carroll: At a party thrown by Erica Jong's daughter, Molly Jong-Fast, a respected podcaster. Counsel: Did you file the case to make money? Carroll: No. It's about getting my name back. Counsel: You write for Substack...
Carroll: Yes. I provide updates on my case. Counsel: Who came to your parties? Carroll: Journalists, podcasters... Counsel: Celebrities? Carroll: Yes. I like attention, there is no question. But not necessarily for suing Donald Trump, or being raped
Carroll: I'd prefer to get attention for making a great three bean salad. Counsel: Do you regret bringing this lawsuit? Carroll: Five times a day. It is... I look at social media and see the onslaught against me.
Counsel: Have people asked to make documentaries? Carroll: Yes Counsel: Why did you stop filming one? Carroll: This case became more important. Counsel: Tell me about the most recent Carroll: Donald Trump tweeted that the best example of injustice was my suing him
Counsel: What's this? Carroll: It's his Truth Social piece. Counsel: Where he called your case a con job? Carroll: Yes. Counsel: He called the justice system a disgrace? Carroll: Yes. Counsel: And, This woman is not my type? Carroll: Yes.
Counsel: How did it impact your reputation? Carroll: I thought I was back on my feet, had garnered some readers, then BOOM, he knocks me back down again. Counsel: Were you surprised? Carroll: I was stunned. Counsel: Why? Carroll: Because I am suing him for this!
Carroll: I am also suing him for assault, under the Adult Survivors Act passed by the NYS legislature. I had one year to sue. Counsel: Did you advocate for that law? Carroll: Yes. Because I understand why women, and some men, do not come forward for years.
Counsel: After his October 12, 2022 posting -- Carroll: A wave of slime, people repeating what Donald Trump said, working for the Democrats, way too ugly. It's hard to wake up to that, people telling you you're too ugly to go on living, practically. Counsel: What's this?
Carroll: A tweet from October 12, 2022. Counsel: Plaintiff offers 45. Judge Kaplan: Proceed. [It's a nasty reply, D-work & B-word to an RSBN posting, apparently from a "Max" account] Counsel: What's this? Carroll: Another tweet, Oct 19, 2022
Counsel: Plaintiff offers 48. Judge Kaplan: Proceed. [It's a reply by "Ezekiel," calling Carroll a "bullshytter," in reply to a NY Daily News article.] Counsel: What's this? Carroll: Another tweet. From Jan 15. [It's "I call bullsh*t" from an account TRPS]
Counsel: Nothing further. Judge Kaplan: Is this the point you and Mr. Tacopina need some time? Tacopina: A bit of time now, to save more in the future. Judge Kaplan: Fifteen minutes. All rise! Jury exits. Thread will continue in 15 - now, over to Ed Sheeran trial
They're back. Jury entering! Judge Kaplan: Cross examination. Trump's lawyer Tacopina: I am going to offer into evidence Ms. Carroll's book, subject to redaction. Judge Kaplan: Admitted on that basis. Tacopino: Your story is odd, correct? Carroll: Some parts, yes
Tacopina: Your Ask E. Jean column gave you status in New York, right? Carroll (after a pause) Yes, it did. Tacopina: Elle Magazine fired you in 2019, correct? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You experienced a different life then, that you were just another person, right?
Carroll: I've never felt like another person. Tacopina: You told your expert witness that after you lost your job you felt like just another person, correct? Carroll: You're right, yes. Tacopina: Status is important to you, right? Carroll: Status is important.
Tacopina: You are a Democrat and were in disbelief about Donald Trump, right? Carroll: I felt really bad, yes. Tacopina: You wrote a book, What Do We Need Men For," right? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You wrote about supposedly being raped - Carroll: Not supposedly.
Tacopina: You said you didn't speak up in 2016 because your mother was dying, right? Carroll: One of the reasons. I was never going to talk. Tacopina: Your mother was dying, correct? Carroll: She was on her death bed. She passed away in October 2016.
Tacopina: Why didn't you come out before the election? Carroll: I was in mourning (voice breaking) Tacopina: It was not that the book wasn't ready? You emailed an excerpt to Laurie Abraham? Carroll: Can you show me the email? Tacopina: Defense Exhibit AB. 6/13/19
Tacopina: You told Carol Martin you had something for her - what was it? Carroll: I have no idea. Something about Andy Borowitz Tacopina: This email is from less than 5 years ago Carroll: I remember the rape. But this email? I send and receive many.
Tacopina: The word "scheme" means what to you? Carroll: It carries no connotation of evil. It's just a word we use. She has colorful language and so do I. Tacopina: You produced email, right? Any other one mention scheme? Carroll: I did not review them.
Tacopina: So you say you have no idea what this "sometime special" you had for Carol Martin was? Carroll: We exchange gift. That's all I know. Tacopina: She and Ms. Birnbach are your two witnesses, right? Carroll: Yes. Carroll's counse: Objection! Sidebar ensues
They return. Judge Kaplan: The objection is sustained. Tacopina. OK. Ms. Carroll, you set out on a road trip to gather information for you book, right? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You discussed it with Carroll Martin - and on June 23, 2019 you texted Lisa Birnbach
Tacopina: You texted Ms. Birnbaum that you'd told Megan Twohey - NYT reporter, right? Carroll: Yes. Tocapina: You told Megan a lie, right? Carroll: I told her the truth. I had not heard back from Lisa and Carol. I assumed, and you know the first 3 letters of that
Carroll: To this day I don't know if Carol and Lisa read the chapter -- Tacopina: They are your witnesses. Carroll: You'll have to ask them. Tacopina: You wrote, You never read it -- Carroll: I was very ill. I made out a will. I made Lisa Birnbach my executor
Carroll: Lisa didn't read it because she didn't remember my password to get in to read the draft. Tacopina: When you said you assumed she didn't read- Carroll: Ask her, if she read the chapter I gave her at Carmine's.
Tacopina: You supposedly spoke to them the day of the alleged rape - but they couldn't give you a specific date, right? Carroll: We can't. I wish we could.
Tacopina: Even the year, right? Carroll: Lisa believes since she wrote about Mar-a-Lago in February, she would not have gone if I'd told her, so it must have been 1996. She swears to that. Tacopina: We'll get a chance to talk to Lisa a little bit later.
Tacopina: Yesterday you said for the 1st time that it was a Thursday. But you were never sure of the year either, right? Carroll: Yeah Tacopina: But you know the day of the week. Carroll: I said it out loud. Tacopina: Never verbalized it before, right? Carroll: No
Tacopina: Before publishing your rape story, you never made it public, right? Carroll: I was never going to. Tacopina: Your book says dispose of all men, right? Carroll: It was satire, you understand? Judge Kaplan: It comes from Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal
Tacopina: In your road trip, you kept a list of most hideous men- was it satire? Carroll: It was dead serious. But it had lighter moment. Men who performed something I could not perform- Tacopina: And the mechanic who put your wheel on wrong Carroll: Cost me $2000
Tacopina: This was a book you desperately wanted to sell, right? Carroll: Yes, I wanted to sell the book I was writing. Tacopina: And naming Donald Trump was a major element of selling your book, right? Carroll: I though it would attract people. I was wrong.
Tacopina: It was Harvey Weinstein's story that caused you to come forward, yes? Carroll: I realized we had a chance to limit the harm. Tacopina: Those women went to the police, right? Carroll. No. I don't know Tacopina: Is Weinstein in jail? Objection! Sustained
Tacopina: You received a signing bonus, it? Carroll: I have no idea what that is. Tacopina: I'm going to play part of a deposition. Let me know when you're ready. Carroll recorded: "They may have given me a signing bonus" Carroll (in court): Like a baseball player
Tacopina: You gave it to NY Mag? Carroll: I gave them a combination of chapters. Judge Kaplan: Lunch time, until 2 pm. At 2:10 pm, they're back. Judge Kaplan: Ladies & gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed your delicious repast. Ms. Carroll, you are still under oath. Mr. Tacopina, you may proceed. Tacopina: You kept the photo with Donald Trump & Ivana for two decades, right? Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: And that's your ex husband John Johnson, who you said strangled you? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You don't recall where the parties was hosted, right? Carroll: I do not. Tacopina: Nor what you discussed. Carroll: It was juicy but I don't remember the topic
Tacopina: When was it? Carroll: Sometime between 1987 and 1996. Tacopina: Let's go to the deposition from October. You said he waved to you on the street. Question: when? Answer: 1994 or 1995, he waved to me on the street. We were on different sides of the street
Tacopina: You say he greeted you but hadn't seen you in eight years - Carroll's lawyer: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Argumentative. Tacopina: Between 1987 and 1995- Judge Kaplan: We can all do the math. Move on. Tacopina: You would agree Bergdorf's is posh? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: And gracious? Carroll: Conducive to shopping. Tacopina: You said it is so upscale it refers to its customers as clients? Carroll: I'm not sure I said that.
Tacopina: Your book didn't say if at Bergdorf's that day, whether it was a revolving or hinge door, right? Carroll: Now I know it is revolving. Tacopina: You say Donald Trump was alone, right? Carroll: I believe so. Tacopina: No one witnessed this interaction?
Judge Kaplan: It's not clear if the witness said Yes or No. I would hope, Mr. Tacopina, you phase your questions better so we don't have to keep doing this. Tacopina: You called Donald Trump one of NY's more famous men, right? Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: But no sales attendant tried to help him? Carroll: They did not. Tacopina: You have a memory of him saying the word lingerie? Carroll: As I wrote, I thought he might have said "underwear." It meant the same thing. The story was shaping up to be hilarious
Tacopina: Did it seem like you were on the escalators for a long time? Carroll: Yes. But the time went quickly. Tacopina: OK. But you saw no one else? Carroll: I was not looking for anyone, I was in an engaging conversation with Donald Trump.
Tacopina: I'm going to read to you from your testimony Judge Kaplan: Mr. Tacopina, I put out an order on this. Tacopina: I have it. Was the testimony you gave about not seeing anyone else truthful? Carroll: I was not concentrated on it. Judge: You have your answer
Tacopina: It's your story that while on the sixth floor you didn't see a single person? Carroll: I did not. We went past cruise wear, could have been bathing suits. I saw no one else. Tacopina: No sales attendants? Carroll: I didn't see any.
Tacopina: It's your testimony-- Carroll's lawyer: Objection. Argumentative. Judge Kaplan: You get to make a closing argument. Tacopina: So you - Another objection. Judge Kaplan: In this courtroom, Mr. Tacopina, the ruling is the ruling. Move on.
Tacopina: Bergdorf's is more expensive than Bloomingdales, right, no offense to Bloomingdales? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: Expensive lingerie could be shoplifted? Carroll: I don't know. Tacopina: And there was no one watching the boxes? Carroll: There was a bodysuit
Tacopina: You say Donald Trump told you to try on the lingerie? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: He didn't tell you to go into a changing room with him? Carroll: I told him to try it on, it was his color. Tacopina: You said, You go try it on, right? Carroll: It was funny
Tacopina: He weighed about 225 pounds in 1996? Carroll: That's what made it funny, this manly man. Tacopina: That was your plan, to get this large man to put on a not so large see-through body suit over his suit pants. Carroll: I was just turning everything around
Carroll: I had written a similar scene for Saturday Night Live and I won an Emmy for it. Tacopina: Your scene was about lingerie? Carroll: No, his own underwear. That is how comedy is born. Tacopina: Did it air? Carroll: Yes. 1987. William Shatner played the role
Carroll: It was very funny. He was falling in love with himself in the mirror... Tacopina: Are you done? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You went with him into the dressing room, right? Carroll: I had no concept how it would turn out
Tacopina: Did you mention before he guided you with his arm into the locker room, or changing room? Carroll: I'm not sure. Tacopina: You went in first? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: It was unlocked and you found it odd, yes? Carroll: It did.
Tacopina: You called it, an amazing happenstance? Carroll: I was surprised. Tacopina: That's what an amazing happenstance means? Carroll: Yes... I expected the joshing to continue. Tacopina: You didn't expect him to try it on? Carroll: No time- he slammed the door
Tacopina: If there was no one on the floor, why did you have to go into a dressing room? Carroll: I don't know. Make it all the funnier. There are mirrors in a dressing room. Tacopina: It's your story the door banged closed and he pushed you up against the wall
Tacopina: It's your story that it hurt. Carroll: Yes Tacopina: Did you think Donald Trump was trying to hurt you? Carroll: I thought he'd made a mistake... It's very strange that I thought it was a mistake. Tacopina: You heard a bang, your story goes? Carroll: Yes
Tacopina: It was only after the second push against the wall that you realized the situation was serious? Not after the first banging of your head? Carroll: It took me several seconds to process what was going on. He put his mouth against mine. Then I understood.
Tacopina: You started laughing? Carroll: I continued laughing, that is right. Laughing is a very good weapon to calm a man down, if he has any erotic intention. Tacopina: It's your story at some point you felt his p*nis inside you? Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: It's your story he rummaged around your v*gina Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: In your book you say he thrust inside, right? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: And it took three minutes? Carroll: No more than that. I didn't have a stopwatch. Tacopina: You never screamed? Carroll: I'm not a screamer.
Tacopina: You said that yesterday. You're being raped, but you didn't scream. Carroll: You can't beat up on me for not screaming. Tacopina: I'm not beating up on you. Carroll: Some don't scream
Tacopina: All this in a surprisely empty department store -- Carroll's lawyer: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Carroll: Woman are told, you better scream... I'M TELLING YOU, HE RAPED ME WHETHER I SCREAMED OR NOT Tacopina: You need a minute? Carroll: No. Go on.
Carroll: I don't need an excuse for not screaming. Tacopina: OK. But you wish you'd screamed? Carroll: Of course. Then more people would believe me Tacopina: Did you prepare a list of answers you'd give to questions you might be asked? Carroll: What? I do prepare
Tapopina: I show you Exhibit A.R. Carroll: Oh. Tacopina: You said, Oh? Carroll: Yes. I lost my glasses but I'll try. Counsel: Here are your glasses. Judge Kaplan: Is this in evidence? Tacopina: Not yet. Judge Kaplan: Then we're not going to discuss it.
Counsel: Subject to redaction I have no objection. Judge Kaplan: Received on that basis. Tacopina: I won't know if the jury has it. [On screen: "WHY DIDN'T YOU SCREAM?" "Too much adrenaline."] Carroll: If I was going to lie, I would have said I screamed.
Carroll: I didn't scream because I didn't want to make a scene. Tacopina: You didn't want anyone to hear and help? You say his p*nis was inside you, but your tights were above your knees? Carroll: Yes. I couldn't get my knee up. I tried to stomp his foot
Tacopina: Your purse was still in your hand? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: What kind of purse was it? Carroll: A leather stand-up. Tacopina: You never hit him with your purse? Carroll: I believe I did. Tacopina: When did you remember that? Carroll: Always.
Tacopina: You pushed him off despite your panties & tights were above your knees? Carroll: Tights are amazingly stretchy Tacopina: You did all this on 4 inch heels? Carroll: I can dance on 4 inch heels. You dance, you understand- Tacopina: I won't respond to that Tacopina: You got your knee up while being sexually penetrated - then walked out wearing those tights? Carroll: They did not come off. Tacopina: The tights never ripped? Carroll: I don't believe they did.
Tacopina: It's your testimony you didn't know if Mr. Trump ejaculated? Carroll: I couldn't see what was going on. Tacopina: You didn't seek help from anyone in the store? Carroll: I didn't. Judge calls a break. [Will run to Sheeran] This thread will continue soon
They're back. Tacopina: Why was Lisa Birnbach you chose to call? Carroll: She was the person I needed, to see what she would tell me - she told me to stop laughing. I think I was slightly disoriented. I thought it was tragic. Tacopina: You said hilarious.
Tacopina: What story were you going to tell Lisa that you thought was hilarious? Carroll: Let me rephrase that - I was hoping it was hilarious. Lisa told me exactly what I needed to hear. Tacopina: She told you you had been raped. Carroll: I don't like the word
Tacopina: Had it occurred to you that you had been raped? Carroll: I just needed to tell someone the story. Tacopina: That's not what I asked you. Had it occurred to you that you had been raped? Carroll's counsel: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Sustained.
Tacopina: How long did this call with Ms. Birnbach last? Carroll: I don't know. Tacopina: She told you to go to the police? Carroll: Yes. I said, No way. I got in my car and drove him. Tacopina: You 1st sued Donald Trump on Nov 4, 2019? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: Four months before you sued, you say you gave Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin your chapter about Donald Trump? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: And you spoke with no one in your family? Carroll: I would never. Nor any authority. ·
Tacopina: You didn't take any medication? Carroll: I'm not into medication. But I may have taken an Advil. Tacopina: Did you call in sick? Carroll: No. But my v*gina hurt from his fingers. Tacopina: But you went to work. Carroll: That's how I do it. I go on.
Tacopina: Carol Martin didn't like Donald Trump? Carroll: She was an anchor woman in New York - Tacopina: I didn't ask that. Carroll's counsel: I think she asked that.
Carroll: I was afraid I'd have to face two tables of lawyers and that's what's happened. Tacopina: We have about the same number of lawyers. Judge Kaplan: Come on Mr. Tacopina, move on.
Carroll: I thought, I've been silent too long. Tacopina: You never told a doctor? Carroll: No. Tacopina: And nothing was visible? Carroll: You can't see inside my v*gina, where his fingers... Tacopina: You said your head. Carroll: It was hidden by my hair.
Tacopina: I'm going to read to you from your book. What is this word? Carroll: Gonadal. Tacopina: What does it mean? Carroll: The glow of the male gonads. Tacopina: You said it was odd you did not report it. Counsel: Objection. Asked and answered.
Tacopina: Do you have any tweets where anyone threatened you? Carroll: Yes but I deleted them. Tacopina: But you say you opened your twitter yesterday to see - Carroll: I opened it today too. Tacopina: Any threats? Carroll: No.
Tacopina (after a sidebar) - Ms. Carroll, you did an interview with Lawrence O'Donnell in 2019, yes?
Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: Let's put it on the screen... No, that's Chris Matthews... Judge Kaplan: Look, if you can't do this, let's move on. Tacopina: It's up.
Tacopina: Let's play Exhibit A.W. O'Donnell: Would you bring a rape charge? Carroll: No, it would be disrespectful to the women on the border, raped around the clock. Mine was three minutes. I'm an adult, I've move on, I'm happy.
Tacopina: You stand by that? Carroll: I'd read a news story that day about women on the border. I felt bad.
Tacopina: You spoke on a podcast about the camp counselor who supposed abused you, Hideous Man Number 6, Cam? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You said Cam impacted you most? Carroll: I don't know the context.
Tacopina: Do we have it? No? We'll figure it out. You learned Cam was arrested years later? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You realized he may have abused others? Carroll's counsel: Objection
Carroll's counsel: This is not a criminal case, your Honor. Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacopina: You haven't brought a criminal case - Judge Kaplan: In NY a private citizen cannot bring a criminal case. Tacopina: She didn't go to the police. Judge Kaplan: Move on.
Tacopina: You never tried to get videos from Bergdorf's? Carroll's counsel: Objection, can we get a time frame? Tacopina: Then or ever. Carroll's counsel: I object to the breadth of the question Judge Kaplan: Sustained. She said what she said.
Tacopina: You're a writer, Ms. Carroll. You wrote every day when you were married to Steve Byers? Carroll: I was pitching. Everyone said No. Tacopina: You never put this rape in your diary? Carroll: I don't write about negative things.
Tacopina: You write about throwing a ball for dog. Carroll: You got my diaries in discovery. I wrote that hundreds of time. Tacopina: You kept the dress? Carroll: It was beautiful. Judge Kaplan: We're going to break for the day and return Monday. Counsel, remain
Jury leaves. Judge Kaplan: Where are you going with this? Tacopina: The witness is still here. Judge Kaplan: If you object, fine. Ms. Carroll, please leave the room. Carroll's counsel: She's collecting her bag.
[Carroll leaves] Judge Kaplan: It would go faster if we stopped asking argumentative questions. Tacopina: I have done this for some time. I am sorry if it sounded argumentative. Judge Kaplan: More than one. I sustained objections. Tacopina: I'm at a loss.
Tacopina: You sustained as to her not going to the police? Judge Kaplan: That's as notorious a fact as that the Yankees have not won the World Series in years.. Tacopina: Or the Mets. Judge Kaplan: I'll give you that. My wife tells me I do hyperbole.
Judge Kaplan: Jonathan Swift, it was in the sense of irony. I commend it to you. When I looked at the cover of this lady's book, it brought back nightmares of Jonathan Swift. Tacopina: Do you remember in My Cousin Vinny - Judge Kaplan: I'm from Staten Island. Yes.
Judge Kaplan: Have a great weekend.
The trial continues on Monday May 1.
Inner City Press live tweeted the direct testimony, thread here
Then on APril 27, the cross examination, here
Court art: Tacopina and Judge Kaplan, courtesy to Inner City Press from Elizabeth Williams
More on Substack here
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