by Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE, April 26 – When E. Jean Carroll testified on April 26 about Donald Trump allegedly raping her in Bergdorf Goodman's in 1996, then defaming her in 2019, Trump's lawyer Joe Tacopina repeatedly objected.
U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York Judge Louis A. Kaplan denied most objections - and told Tacopina that his client might be subjecting himself to liability under other Federal statutes with his posts on Truth Social (and his son's tweets).
Judge Kaplan also ruled that sexual assault ascribed to Les Moonves, and funding of this lawsuit by Linked-In co-founder Reid Hoffman, would not be allowed into evidence.
Inner City Press live tweeted the day's testimony, thread here
OK - Now Carroll v. Trump trial, Day 2 - Inner City Press is live tweeting the trial - now complaint about Trump post on Truth Social about Ms. Bergdorf Goodman being a "scam"
Before anonymous jury brought in, complaint about Trump's post. Judge Kaplan, to Tacopina: Your client is speaking to his "public," about things he is not supposed to speak about.
Tacopina: Ms. Kaplan's office leaked that two mock juries found liability
Tacopina: I'm not saying Ms. Kaplan did it. Someone from that wall did it. Judge Kaplan: Could have been someone off the street who was paid to give an opinion.
Tacopina: I've read the article. Judge Kaplan: I have too. There were 37 people... Tacopina: I will speak to my client about the post today, I assure you. But they have done it too. There was a protective order that was not signed or executed. I will ask my client not to comment on the case. I don't. [He went out Pearl Street door yesterday]
Judge Kaplan: Your client may be tampering with a new source of potential liability. And I think you know what I mean. [Contempt of court?] Judge Kaplan: Anything else? Carroll's lawyer (sounding happy) Nothing, your Honor
First witness: Cheryl L. Beall. Carroll's lawyer: What is your current job? Beall: VP of a cosmetics company. Before that, Prada, Louis Vuitton... Carroll's lawyer: Let's focus on the spring of 1996. Where were you? Beall: Bergdorf Goodman on 57th and 5th Avenue
Carroll's lawyer: What was your job? Beall: Manager of the women's store. Carroll's lawyer: How busy would it get on Thursday evening? Beall: Busy if we had an event. Otherwise, rather quiet.
Carroll's lawyer: On this chart, what is FR? Beall: The fitting rooms, dressing rooms. Carroll's lawyer: Where would the swimwear area be? Beall: It moved. It was a swing shop. It was seasonal.
Carroll's lawyer: Were the fitting rooms sometimes open? Beall: Yes. We wished they were. But some sales associates tied them open with ribbons. Carroll's lawyer: Could two people fit inside? Beall: Yes. People shop together.
Carroll's lawyer: Did famous people shop there then? Beall: One of my favorites was Pierce Brosnan -- Carroll's lawyer: How were famous people treated?
Beall: They were given privacy. We didn't like hearing, I just saw this famous football guy with a 2d personCarroll's lawyer: Had you seen Donald Trump? Beall: Yes, I saw him on 57th Street.
Carroll's lawyer: Did you ever hear of Donald Trump being in Bergdorf's? Trump's lawyer: Objection! Hearsay! Judge Kaplan: Not necessarily.
Carroll's lawyer: I'll rephrase. If Donald Trump came in, would you be alerted? Beall: Not necessarily. If he was president, sure, there'd be Secret Service. Carroll's lawyer: No further questions.
Judge Kaplan: Cross examination. Trump's lawyer: Given the proximity from the fitting room to the main area, if someone screamed, would they be heard? Beall: If they screamed, yes. Trump's lawyer: And if someone's head- Judge Kaplan: If a tree falls in the forest
Trump's lawyer: I got my answer, Your Honor. Judge Kaplan: I know you did. But you know where I'm coming from. Trump's lawyer: Did you maintain the footage from the security cameras? Beall: Sure. Trump's lawyer: Could a person get it? Beall: I assume so.
Trump's lawyer: Did you have guards? Beall: Security executives might take a pass through the store. Trump's lawyer: If a person had a security concern they could be approached? Judge Kaplan: Were they in uniform? Beall: At the front desk.
Trump's lawyer: Thanks
Carroll: That website uses AI to help people find a good partner. I get 200 letters a month, how to find someone to make them happy. Carroll: Let's turn to the reason you're here, what happened with Donald Trump. When did you meet him? Carroll: 1987, at SNL or ABC
Counsel: What's in this photo? Carroll: Donald Trump, Ivana, John Johnson & me. [It's PX 12, also labeled "Confidental CARROLL 030211]
Carroll: The conversation was about 5 minutes. He was a raconteur. Counsel: Did you find him attractive? Carroll: Yes. Personable
Counsel: When do you believe Donald Trump assaulted you? Carroll: Going by what I was wearing, tights but no coat, I'd say Spring. Ms. Birnbach has written a story about Mr. Trump and Mar-a-Lago, a bomb shell --
Trump's lawyer: Objection!
Counsel: Ms. Carroll, we're not going to get into the substance of the article. How did it help you remember when? Carroll: Mr. Tacopina said I referred to 1995 or 1996 -- Counsel: Just, how did the article help you remember? Carroll: Lisa Birnbach wrote it...
Carroll: She went down to Mar-a-Lago in February 1996. I believe she would not have done down there if she'd known what Trump had done to me -- Tapopina: Objection. Judge Kaplan: I'm going to allow it.
Carroll: I believe it was a Thursday. Counsel: You've never before said that, right? Carroll: I've always thought it. I'm not 100% certain. But I think so. Counsel: Are you sure? Carroll: I feel sure. But not 100%.
Carroll: I lived in a cottage in Nyack. I'd feed the dogs then write the TV show. I'd drive to Fort Lee, into hair and make up. Live at 4 pm... At Bergdorf, Donald Trump asked me to help him buy a gift. I loved it - it was a great NY moment. I asked, For how old?
Carroll: Donald Trump asked, How old are you? I said 52. And he said, You are soo oooold. He was being funny. Counsel: What floor were you on? Carroll: The first floor Counsel: Did anyone recognize you? Carroll: There was a shopper. She was tiny, staring up at him
Carroll: He was petting a fur hat and he said, I know, lingerie. Counsel: You mean, underwear? Carroll: Yes. We went up to the sixth floor. Counsel: Was there anything discomforting, that Mr. Trump had proposed lingerie? Carroll: No. I thought it was a great story
Carroll: He was talking about buying Bergdorf. Counsel: Who else did you see? Carroll: I wasn't looking. Counsel: How did you move? Carroll: May I stand up? Counsel: Your Honor, may she? Judge Kaplan: Yes.
Carroll: There was a blue body suit. He said, Go put this on. It was see-through. They used to be called teddies. Counsel: Anyone else there? Carroll: I didn't see anyone. Bergdorf's is not busy in the evening Counsel: Have you written before you were surprised?
Carroll: Now I find it surprising. Counsel: Did you put it on? Carroll: No. I said, You put it on. It's your color. He said, You're in shape, go put it on. Counsel: Why in the world would you think he would? Carroll: He was having a good time, and so was I.
Carroll: The door was open and I thought, OK, I saw it as an SNL sketch. Counsel: Were you flirting with Donald Trump? Carroll: Yes. The whole time Counsel: What happened next? Carroll: He shut the door and shoved me up against the wall. I was confused. I laughed
Carroll: I pushed him back. He thrust me back against the wall again. Counsel: Were you still laughing? Carroll: Yes. I didn't want to make a scene, or make him angry. I know that sounds strange. Counsel: What did he do? Carroll: Held me against the wall.
Carroll: He pulled down my tights. I didn't want anything else to happen. Counsel: Did you say, No? Carroll: No. I do not recall saying it. I may have said it. Counsel: Did you scream? Carroll: I'm not a screamer. I'm a fighter.
Counsel: Would someone nearby have heard? Carroll: Yes. My head hitting. And me laughing. I was 5'9'' then, I've leveled since. I had on four inch heels. I weighed 120 then. He weighed about one hundred more pounds.
Carroll: His fingers went into my v*gina. It was extremely painful. It was a horrible feeling. He put his hand inside me and curled his finger. As I sit here today, I can still feel it. [Pause]. Then he inserted his p*nis. Counsel: What did you do?
Carroll: I...
Counsel: We'll need a moment. Carroll: I wonder WHY I WALKED IN THERE, to get in that situation... I'm proud to say I got out of there. Counsel: Could you see what Mr. Trump was doing with his hand? Carroll: I couldn't see. Only feel the pain.
Counsel: Were you wearing underwear? Carroll: No. To me, tights are underwear. I wouldn't wear two pairs of underwear. Counsel: Do you know if he ejaculated? Carroll: I don't think so. Counsel: Then what? Carroll: I got out of the store as quickly as I could Inne
Counsel: How did you get out of the store? Carroll: I walked out. I took the escalator. Counsel: Were you running? Walking? Carroll: I'm guessing I was walking swiftly. Counsel: Did Mr. Trump come after you? Carroll: I was never sure if he was behind me. I rushed
Counsel: How do you feel about your decision to go up to that dressing room? Carroll: It was very stupid. It changed... I know people have been through a lot worse than this. But it left me unable to ever have a romantic life again.
Counsel: What did you do? Carroll: I called my friend Lisa Birnbach. She wrote "The Preppy Handbook." I thought, if she thinks it's funny, I didn't do a stupid thing. Counsel: Why would Lisa Birnbach think it was funny? Carroll: I hadn't processed it. Adrenaline
Counsel: Do you now believe any of it was funny? Carroll: No, it was tragic... I told Lisa, You're not going to believe what just happened. He pulled down my tights. She said, E. Jean, I don't think that's funny. I must have still been laughing.
Carroll: Lisa asked me, Did he insert his p*nis? I said yes and she said, He raped you. You should go to the police. I didn't go. I couldn't Counsel: Why not? Carroll: I was ashamed. I thought it was my fault. I was flirting with him, laughing, having a great time
Counsel: Then what did you do, that evening? Carroll: Walked to the garage and drove home. Counsel: That night, any physical signs of abuse? Carroll: My head hurt. My v*gina felt pain. Counsel: Did you seek medical attention? Carroll: No.
Counsel: What did you do with the dress? Carroll: I kept it. It was my best dress. I thought I might wear it again. I couldn't believe that it happened to me.
Counsel: Did you keep a journal at this time? Carroll: When I was younger, I wrote about my emotions. After 40, about hiking and my dog. I'm very superstitious - I don't write bad things done. If I don't write it down, I don't think about it
Counsel: What did you do the next day? Carroll: I went to work. And I thought I knew best. I didn't see a therapist. But I told Carol Martin. She was an anchorwoman at ABC. I needed a hug. I told her, I had a run-in with Donald Trump at Bergdorf's.
Carroll: I spoke to Carol at her house. Counsel: Who else was there? Carroll: Her dog Cisco. Carol is open hearted. Her concern was, Do not go to the police. He has 200 lawyers, he'll bury you. I agreed with her. And we agreed never to talk about it. Seigel: Ms. Carroll says Les Moonves graphically sexually assaulted her on an elevator. Judge Kaplan: Page? Line? Seigel: 162 of the transcript, lines 12 through 17. Defendant's exhibit AA.
Judge Kaplan: Give me a minute. If you're talking I can't read.
Carroll's lawyer Michael Ferrara cites a 9th Circuit case. Seigel: The rule only applies when the witness had not raised the issue herself and opened the door, which has clearly happened here. She has written about this.
Judge Kaplan: Give me a moment, fellas. What does the 9th Circuit say, Mr. Ferrara, that requires the exclusion of the Moonves incident? Ferrara: The rule excludes evidence of other sexual assaults -
E. Jean Carroll's lawyer Ferrara: We think of it as doors. Some must remain closed, other will be opened -- Judge Kaplan: Except at Bergdorf's. Ferrara: Well played.
Trump's lawyer Seigel: They want to allow questions about the dentist, when she was a child, because it evokes sympathy, but not Moonves -- Judge Kaplan: Rape of a child is bad, but rape of a woman is not? I wouldn't want to hang my argument on that.
Judge Kaplan: I just read a scathing letter in this case the other day. You are carping. I've had enough of it. Seigel: They've opened the door. We're permitted to rebut it. Judge Kaplan: You say an incident with Moonves in 1997 also limited romance Seigel: Or sex
Ferrara: The reason we came up with the camp counselor is that -- Judge Kaplan: Forget the camp counselor. Let's stick with what we're talking about. She says, X happened and I have consequences. They say, there was also Y. Ferrara: We say Rule 412 precludes it.
Judge Kaplan: Counselor, if your expert going to attribute harm to Moonves? Trump's lawyer Seigel: He intends to. Judge Kaplan: Is it in his report? Seigel: Yes, generally. Judge Kaplan: I'll think about it over lunch.
Carroll's lawyer Ferrara: Ms. Carroll has said her second husband John Johnson was violent with her. Not sexually. But we think the reason they fought must be excluded, under Rule 403. Tacopina: It's relevant. He got violent because she called him an ape
Judge Kaplan: The underlying reason is not coming in, it is a subject on which the unfair prejudicial effect outrageously outweighs any probative value, to a mixed race jury in New York, it is outrageous in my opinion. Tacopina: I've got your ruling.
Judge Kaplan: I know what you're up to. Tacopina: I'm trying to defend the case. To not hear the reason for Johnson's violence, it's not fair. Judge Kaplan: You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not mine. [Stands up to leave]
OK, they're back. Before jury allowed in, Tacopina says he will ask about the "group of men she claims have mistreated her throughout her life." Carroll's counsel: We'll take it question by question. Jury entering!
Carroll's counsel: Do you remember the disk I showed you? Carroll: Yes. Counsel: We offer DX 112. It's a video of Roger Ailes interviewing Donald Trump, as grand marshal of a military parade. Counsel: Who is Roger Ailes?
Carroll: He started Fox News.
Counsel: Why do you think you were then unable to form a romantic relationship? Carroll: In short, because I was raped by Donald Trump. Counsel: Why did it have that effect? Carroll: I flirted with him, and he raped me. So going forward, I didn't look at men
Carroll's counsel: I'm sorry to ask this, but have you had sex since? Carroll: No. I have a public persona, then a private self that can't admit out loud [voice breaks] that there's been any suffering. Counsel: May I approach? Tissues. Carroll: Thank you Counsel: Why didn't you speak up when he ran? Carroll: My mother was dying in Indiana. And I notice that as more women came out and accused him, his polling numbers went up. Counsel: Are you involved in politics? Carroll: I am a registered Democrat.
Counsel: Have you ever donated to a candidate? Carroll: $1000 to President Obama. Counsel: Who have you voted for? Carroll: Obama. Clinton. Biden. Counsel: What is your view of Donald Trump? Carroll: He's vile.
Counsel: Let me show you PX 120. What is it? Carroll: The most hideous men in NYC walking tour. In 2019.
[Tacopina says something]
Judge Kaplan: Were you addressing me? Tacopina: We're trying to resolve something without getting Your Honor involved.
[Photo without text is now put up] Tacopina: No objection, your Honor Counsel: What was that tour?
Carroll: They do Most Famous Gangsters walking tour, so I thought, Why not hideous men? In six blocks of 5th Avenue, we visited where well known men mistreated women Carroll: New York Magazine ran an excerpt. It hit the Internet 3 days before the hard copy magazine. June 21, 2019. Counsel: Why not publish it in Elle? Carroll: They would not have published it. They would not publish their advice columnist admitting a mistake
Counsel: Were you paid by New York Magazine? Carroll: No, they paid St. Martins, like $7500. Counsel: Did you send it to Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin? Carroll: Yes, as an email attachment. Neither had a problem with it. They are both writers.
Counsel: Were you three interviewed that June? Carroll: Yes. Counsel: Did it change your recollection of the events? Carroll: No, but I hadn't known Lisa was feeding her children when she got my call.
Counsel: After it was published, what was the response? Carroll: I thought Donald Trump would denied, because he denies everything. Tacopina: Objection. Judge: Sustained. Counsel: Let me show you his tweet, I never met her. You see it? Carroll: Yes
Counsel: How about this interview in The Hill, June 24, 2019, where he says "She's not my type." What do you understand that to mean? Carroll: That I'm too ugly to attack, to rape. I thought he was going to say it was consensual. Then I started getting threats
Carroll: The letters I got as E. Jean, they turned negative. And the threats? Counsel: What was your reaction? Carroll: I deleted them. Counsel: Did you also get support? Carroll: Yes. From all over. But the vileness about my ugliness, it swamped it out.
Carroll (voice breaking) Getting my day in court, it is everything to me. So I am happy (sobs). Counsel: Shall we take a moment? Carroll: I'll get myself together. This is my day in court. I'm not going to cry and waste everyone's time... I lost 8 million readers.
Carroll: I've still got 19,000 readers on Substack. But Elle Magazine fired me since I accused Donald Trump. Counsel: Were you able to obtain a new job? Carroll: No. I have a Substack. For Elle once a month I got $5000. Now I churn out 3 a week for the same income
Counsel: Have you heard of Jessica Leeds? Carroll: Yes. I interviewed her about Donald Trump assaulting her on a plane. The press tends to use words like grope. I --
Tacopina: Objection.
Judge Kaplan: To what? We'll break here, the jurors can go home. But first...
Judge Kaplan: Very important you don't read anything about this case or go online. [Jury leaves] Tacopina: She said, Other women had come forward -- Carroll's lawyer: She's covered a lot today. We aren't trying to import other allegations.
Judge Kaplan: Remind me tomorrow
Judge Kaplan: OK, see you tomorrow. [Judge leaves]
More here including analysis and Donziger echo on Substack here
Court art: Tacopina and Judge Kaplan, courtesy to Inner City Press from Elizabeth Williams
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