by Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE, May 1 – When E. Jean Carroll testified on April 26 on direct examination about Donald Trump allegedly raping her in Bergdorf Goodman's in 1996, then defaming her in 2019, Trump's lawyer Joe Tacopina repeatedly objected.
U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York Judge Louis A. Kaplan denied most objections - and told Tacopina that his client might be subjecting himself to liability under other Federal statutes with his posts on Truth Social (and his son Eric's statements).
Now early on May 1, Trump's lawyer Tacopina has filed an 18-page motion for a mistrial. Motion on Patreon here.
Inner City Press live tweeted the direct testimony, thread here
Then on April 27, the cross examination, here
On May 1, the cross examination continued, concluding with re-direct and re-cross. Tacopina asked about the failure to scream, and what he called four reasons given. Many more objections by Carroll's counsel were substained. Thread here.
OK - Carroll v. Trump trial resumes now, after sealed filings (Inner City Press has written to the Court seeking to unseal Judge Kaplan: The motion I found on my desk this morning from the defense, has that now been filed? Yes.
[But what about the sealed submissions, and Inner City Press' request to unseal? documentcloud.org In Trump Civil Trial, Motion to Unseal Carroll Filing of Sunday Night As Inner City Press Cites...
Judge Kaplan: Bring in the jury. Jury entering! Judge Kaplan: Ms. Carroll, you're still under oath. Proceed. Tacopina: Ms. Carroll, you continued to shop at Bergdorf's after the 1995 or 1996 event you describe? Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: You went into dressing rooms? Carroll: I don't believe so. Tacoplina: I refer to Ms. Carroll's deposition of Jan 31 of this year, you said you would go into the changing room... Carroll: I think I was thinking about my niece, it was all a changing room
Tacopina: Since 1995 or 1996, you've been many purchases from Bergdorf's? Carroll: Not necessarily many, but several. Tacopina: I'm going to put up Exhibit AY - this is your document? Carroll: Yes a QuickBooks document by my sister Candy.
Tacopina: So there are four purchases - fair to say you were not afraid of going to Bergdorf's? Carroll: Correct. Tacopina: And at your niece's fitting, you had champagne with Lisa Birnback, the person you told about the alleged rape - and never thought about it?
Carroll: A vision may have streaked through my brain. This was a happy occasion. I wasn't there to remember the time in the dressing room in 1996. Tacopina: Did you talk about it with Lisa [Birnbach]? Carroll: No.
Tacopina: You remember the Apprenctice show? You were a fan? Carroll: Yes I was impressed. Ambitious young business people competing, that's what I liked. Not him firing people. Tacopina: But you posted that you were a big fan... Carroll: 2 of my friends were on
Tacopina: This Facebook post says, Would you have sex with Donald Trump for $17,000 if he couldn't speak - you joked around about this, right? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You joked about having sex with Mr. Trump 5 years before. Judge Kaplan: We all know the math.
Tacopina: Your book, it has a list of hideous men? Carroll: It is a dark satire. Tacopina: According to you, it does not even include all the men you say assaulted you? Carroll's lawyer: Objection!
Judge Kaplan: Members of the jury, please go into the jury room.
Judge Kaplan: Mr. Ferrara? Ferrara: We've briefed to the course about prior sexual experiences. The question could elicit that... It is not appropriate for the jury to know of assaults outside the book, even some in the book. Tacopina: That was the question
Tacopina: She testified to the 21 most hideous men, it seemingly not including all those who apparently assaulted her. I can tell you the next questions.... Judge Kaplan: I want to hear your argument. Tacopina: It does not violation 412. Her book was in the direct
Judge Kaplan: There are cases saying that non consensual sex is covered by t412. So why would an answer this question be permissible? Tacopina: OK, I will withdraw the question... Carroll's lawyer: The book as a whole is not in. The attacks by JJ and Moonves, yes
[JJ is John Johnson, who strangling of Carroll is described in the book - Geraldo was staying over too] Judge Kaplan: Brong the jury back. Tacopina asks about deposition answer [Deposition played] Q: Did you report any of these assaults to the police? Carroll: No
Tacopina: So you didn't call the police? Carroll: I was a member of the silent generation. I only called once. I was staying in a farm house and kids hit Helen Hayes' mailbox. I called the police because I thought they were marring it. My only call to the police
Tacopina: So you would call the police about a mailbox, but not about being raped? Carroll: I would not call about something I was ashamed of. Tacopina: Strike as non-responsive. Carroll's counsel: It provides context.
Tacopina: But in your column you advised readers to call the police? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: Let's go through some snippets. Ask E. Jean of May of 1994, you advised a reader, you gave the NY rape hot line number. Carroll: I always advised that
Tacopina: Here's another advise column, August of 2006, do you recall that? Carroll: Yes Carroll's lawyer: Nothing on the exhibit suggests a date. Tacopina: Please highlight the section. Carroll: It's an undated document. Judge Kaplan: This is cumulative, move on
Tacopina: This one has a date in 2016, do you recall this? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You advised to call the police due to threatening emails? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: May of 2017- Carroll's counsel: Objection! Cumulative! Judge Kaplan: Granted.
Tacoplina: You say Donald Trump accused you of lying about rape to increase book sales and carry out a political agenda, & you claims it's false? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: But the story was in the book to market it? Carroll: At 76, I was no longer going to be silent
Carroll: I do not like Donald Trump and I thought that he was a terrible president. Tacopina: Carol Martin asked if she could be reimbursed for her travel from New Jersey to New York? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: I'm going to show you exhibit BS [There is laughter]
Tacopina: Shortly after that, you replied in sum and substance that you would have that taken care of? Carroll: I had no idea how it would be taken care of. But I wanted to assure her, she was worried about costs of bridges and parking, she's on a fixed income
Carroll: I believe they had a Zoom meeting, so there were no costs. Tacopina: Then Carol Martin said, No more chats or texts -- Carroll's counsel: Objection. Not in evidence. Tacopina: It goes to state of mind. There's a response. Carroll's counsel: We object
Judge Kaplan: Let me see it... Tacopina: The emoji doesn't show up on the print out, if you see -- Judge Kaplan: Never assume that I know about things like that. I don't think this comes in. Sustained. Tacopina: Was Carol Martin's counsel Noam Biale-- Objection!
Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacoplina: Mr. George Conway said you should seriously think about suing Donald Trump? Carroll: No. Tacopina: Let me read from your deposition... You said, I had a conversation with an actual lawyer who said, You should think about it?
Carroll: He explained to me the two ways, yes. Tacopina: You are aware of Mr. Conway's view of Donald Trump? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: He recommended you to an attorney who you met two days later? Carroll: Yes Tacopina: You met with Carol and Lisa with the attorney?
Carroll: We had a dinner together. It wasn't an official meeting. Tacopina: It's your testimony you chose to sue Donald Trump because he called you a liar? Carroll: He did more than that. Tacopina: I'm going to play from a deposition...
[From deposition: Carroll: He called me a liar and I couldn't let it stand] Tacopina: In the book you also say Les Mooves of CBS assaulted you? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: He's on your most hideous men list?
Carroll: Yes Tacopina: You accuse him of going after you like an octopus while having an erection? Carroll: I wrote octopus, not erection Tacopina: You wrote that he was "pricking" Carroll: Yes Tacopina: Les Moonves denied it? Carroll: To NY Magazine. He said it never happened
Tacopina: He called you a liar. Carroll: He just denied it. He didn't grind my face into the mud like Donald Trump did. Tacopina: You didn't sue Les Moonves -- Judge Kaplan: This certainly sounds repetitious. You asked this before.
Tacopina: If Donald Trump had said it was consensual, you wouldn't have viewed it as him calling you a liar? Carroll's counsel: Objection! Argumentative! Calls for speculation! Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacopina: Let me play the deposition
[From deposition, Q: If he said it was consensual, he wouldn't be calling you a liar? Carroll: Right.] Carroll's counsel: We need 7 more lines, under the rule of completeness. Judge Kaplan: Sustained. [From deposition: Carroll: at 80 I expect nothing] I
Carroll: At least it would have been Donald Trump admitting that he was there. Tacopina: Is this a good place to take our morning break? Judge Kaplan: Yes. 15 minutes.
OK, they're back. Judge KAPLAN: What evidentiary treats do we have in store? Tacopina: We seek to introduce this for Ms. Carroll's state of mind, not that of Ms. Natasha Stoynoff... Judge Kaplan: If I had a hard copy, we could have a record.
Tacopina: Here is exhibit BT. Judge Kaplan: What's on the screen is just a subset. What you have up here now is the entirety of Page 21. This isn't put together. Tacopina: I'll read it to you- Judge Kaplan: It ends somewhere on page 31? Tacopina: No. On page 23
Judge Kaplan: I understand what you are trying to do. Ms. Carroll asked Ms. Stoynoff if Donald Trump rubbed his body against her. You are trying to say Ms. Carroll was trying to suggest that Ms. Stoynoff quote unquote remember the event. At 21, I don't recall...
Judge Kaplan: on the next offered page, she got, I don't think so. Then at page 37, she got If he did I can't remember it, I'm trying to think. Tacopina: The first time she said, I don't recall him doing it. And second, if he did, then...
Judge Kaplan: You should do this in 5 minutes. Let's get the jury. Jury entering! Judge Kaplan: Sorry for the longer than expected interruption. I think we have solved things that will save time. We are on or ahead of schedule. Proceed.
Tacopina: You were assaulted several time but only sued Donald Trump? Carroll: Yes. Judge Kaplan: Ladies & gentlemen of the jury, there are two lawsuit. The first was brought solely for defamation. At that time Ms Carroll could not sue him for allegedly raping her
Judge Kaplan: The law changed. She sued on that, and on the new defamation. Don't worry about the first case. Let' go. Tacopina: Ms. Carroll, you asked Ms. Stoynoff if Mr. Trump grinded on you - and she said, I don't recall -- Carroll's counsel: Objection!
Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacopina: After getting that response, you-- Carroll's lawyer: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacopina: OK. After your book excerpt you were contacted by Anderson Cooper and appeared on CNN - I'm going to play an 8 minute clip.Video playing (available on YouTube, in some placed edited...]
In courtroom: "Most people think of rape as being sexy." "Let's take a break." "You're fascinating to talk to." Tacopina: Most people don't of rape as something sexy. Do you? Carroll: Game of Thrones shows nine rapes, 50 attempts. Rape is everywhere in our entertainment world. It excites people and draws an audience. Hence I said, Most people think of rape as sexy... But to me, rape is the more violent act that can be done
Tacopina: Ms. Carroll, are you aware there is a Law & Order episode that -- Carroll's lawyer: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Come to the sidebar. [Whispered, non-public sidebar ensues]
They're back. Tacopina: You are aware there is a Law & Order episode from 2012 about rape in a Bergdorf Goodman's fitting room? Carroll: I am aware. Tacopina: You are a fan of Law & Order? Carroll: Yes, but not SVU, it's too violent.
Carroll: It's an astonishing coincidence. Tacopina: And you didn't tell the writer of the episode about your story? Carroll: No. Tacopina: You don't blame Elle Magazine for firing you? Carroll: I understood it. But I was forlorn. They let me go after 27 years.
Tacopina: You are aware Elle Magazine says it was a business decision? Carroll: I agree that it was about business -- Carroll's lawyer: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacopina: It's in a deposition...
Tacopina: You sent an email to your agent that after Nina Garcia, the editor of Elle, took over they cut your salary from $10,000 to $5000 a column. You were looking to get out of your contract, right? Carroll: I was looking for other work. At the Atlantic.
Carroll: My column used to be in the well of the magazine. The new folks moved it around. They also buried it online. Tacopina: They were mad you published your book excerpt in New York Magazine? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: That was Nina Garcia? Carroll: Yes.
Carroll: When the president of the US called me a liar for three straight days, my trustworthiness crumbled. Tacopina: In your email to your agent, you said Nina Garcia loathed you? Carroll: Yes. She hated me and she loathed me.
Tacopina: Let me refresh your recollection. Page 187 to 189. Just read it - [Carroll starts reading out loud] Judge Kaplan: No, no, this is just to refresh. Tacopina: It's that Elle didn't feel comfortable-- Carroll's lawyer: Objection! May we approach? A: Yes.
After a whispered sidebar, they're back. Tacopina: Let me know you a deposition from October 2022. Carroll's lawyer: We object to the hearsay in this. Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Tacopina: I'll move on to damages. Mr. [John] Johnson was your last relationship?
Tacopina: And you testified you haven't had sex since what you say happened with Mr. Trump? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: You were asked, Have you had any relationships since? You said No, because Donald Trump raped me. Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: I'll show you AQ
Judge Kaplan: Do you have a hard copy? Tacopina: Just a moment. The good news, your Honor, is that this is going to be the last time we'll be doing this. Carroll's counsel: We would not object. Audio: Carroll: Maybe I didn't have sex since because I lacked luck
Judge Kaplan: You didn't play the whole excerpt. Tacopina reads more, about Carroll not meeting the right person. Then asks, You're now asking for emotional damages from the alleged rape? Carroll: Yes.
Tacopina: You wrote, I am fine, I never suffered. That was the public E. Jean, not the private? Carroll: Yes. Tacopina: That was from your book? Judge Kaplan: That's established. Carroll: I didn't reveal my whole self, I held something back.
Carroll: I put on the go get 'em face that I've always had. Tacopina: Your perception only started to change in 2017? Carroll: I was coming to understand some terrible things. Tacopina: It was the MeToo movement and the Harvey Weinstein story? Carroll: Yes
Judge Kaplan: Mr. Tacopina are we getting close? Tacopina: Close. Judge Kaplan: Define close. Tacopina: 10 or 15 minutes. Judge Kaplan: Let's take a break. Thread will continue.
They're back. Judge Kaplan: Mr. Tacopina, you said you'd be done by lunch. Tacopina: It got a little complicated. I haven't had lunch Judge Kaplan: You want to keep you hungry (laughs). Your colleague could get your Kansas City ribs.
Jury entering! Tacopina: On Jan 31, 2023 you testified things changed in 2016? Carroll: I had to get used to seeing Donald Trump everywhere. Tacopina: I'll show you defense exhibit CU. Judge Kaplan: Can we move this along? Tacopina: We've moved a lot
Tacopina: We're putting in this Instagram post. It's about the hideous men of NYC walking tour. What's that? Carroll: NYC has a best walking tours. So I thought of one about hideous men. You'd start at Tiffany's. Women were told not to speak at meetings.
Carroll: Then we'd go to NBC, then Fox News, then CBS. Then where Studio 54 was. Tacopina: You posted this picture with the man in the Donald Trump mask. You're smiling. You're having a wonderful time? Carroll: It was a very instructive tour.
Tacopina: One last podcast. [On audio, Carroll says, it's been fabulous.] Tacopina: No futher questions. Judge Kaplan: Re-direct. Carroll's lawyer: Have you had negative moments? Carroll: Yes but I've never mentioned them.
Carroll's lawyer: How do you feel about having found some happiness later in life? Carroll: I feel good about it. That's the goal of all of us in this courtroom, to find a little bit of happiness.... This is a satisfying moment for me, to be here (voice breaks)
Carroll: When people ask me how I am, I'm more concerned with them. I don't want to, as they say, unload on them. Counsel: You said your desire for desire was killed. Carroll: I believe in luck. You make your own. I was getting in my own way. I did not flirt.
Carroll's lawyer: Did you ever see that Law & Order SVU episode? Carroll: No. Carroll's lawyer: Mr. Tacopina asked you, Why didn't you scream, yes? Carroll: I was amazed that a woman be asked that in 2023. Tacopina: Objection! Judge Kaplan: I'll allow it.
Counsel: Why didn't you take your own advice? Carroll: Donald Trump was very powerful. Women of my age just took our licks and went on. I've looked this up, at the National --
Tacopina: Objection!
Carroll's lawyer: OK, how many men on your hideous men list? Carroll: 21. Counsel: How old are you: Carroll: Almost 80. Most of the men I've met are not hideous. Counsel: Ever a doubt Mr. Trump penetrate you with his fingers? Carroll: No doubt
Carroll's lawyer: Plaintiff offers Exhibit 52. Judge Kaplan: Received. Carroll's lawyer: It's an email from Steph, what does it stay. Carroll: It says, You're going to get hurt. Carroll's lawyer: No further questions.
Judge Kaplan: Any re-cross? Tacopino: Briefly. Ms. Carroll, are you happy? Carroll: With overtones. Tacopino: I am not judging you for not screaming, but for given four reasons. Judge Kaplan: Jury will disregard. Not an appropriate question. Move on.
Tacopina: You prepared with a list of Q&A, anticipating you'd be asked why you didn't scream? Carroll's lawyer: Objection. Argumentative. Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Ms. Carroll you are excused. Jurors, tomorrow 10 am.
More on Substack here
Watch this site.
Court art: Tacopina and Judge Kaplan, courtesy to Inner City Press from Elizabeth Williams
***
Your support means a lot. As little as $5 a month helps keep us going and grants you access to exclusive bonus material on our Patreon page. Click here to become a patron.
Feedback: Editorial [at] innercitypress.com
