by Matthew Russell Lee, Patreon Book Substack
SDNY COURTHOUSE, May 3 – When E. Jean Carroll testified on April 26 on direct examination about Donald Trump allegedly raping her in Bergdorf Goodman's in 1996, then defaming her in 2019, Trump's lawyer Joe Tacopina repeatedly objected.
U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York Judge Louis A. Kaplan denied most objections - and told Tacopina that his client might be subjecting himself to liability under other Federal statutes with his posts on Truth Social (and his son Eric's statements).
Now early on May 1, Trump's lawyer Tacopina has filed an 18-page motion for a mistrial. Motion on Patreon here.
Inner City Press live tweeted the direct testimony, thread here
Then on April 27, the cross examination, here
On May 1, the cross examination continued, Thread here.
May 2 saw Lisa Birnbach and Jessica Leeds, a Bergdorf supervisor and the plaintiff's psychological expert, concluding with confirmation that Trump will not be coming to the trial. Thread here.
On May 3, after the psychologist Leslie Lebowitz, the plaintiff put on her sister Candy, Natasha Stoynoff and... the Access Hollywood tape. Followed up by Trump's deposition. Thread here.
OK, now Carroll v. Trump trial Day 6, with plaintiff's psychologist on the stand.Jury entering!
Judge Kaplan: Ms Kaplan, proceed. Carroll's lawyer Roberta Ann Kaplan (RAK): Dr. Lebowitz, have you been following the trial testimony? Lebowitz: Some of it. Yesterday.
Carroll's counsel Roberta Kaplan: Understanding that every person is different, are broad cateogies of ways in which -- Judge Kaplan: You could take that a little slower. Roberta Kaplan: Of course, Your Honor. Doctor, what happens to a person's brain amid trauma?
Dr Lebowitz: Ms. Carroll actually described this well, not feeling like herself, being flooded with adrenaline or hormones. The front of the brain allows us to plan. The rest of the brain, we share - we can no longer think, we become automatic
Counsel: You're saying trauma can make a person illogical? Dr Lebowitz: Yes. For example, in a crisis in Finland a woman ran after her hat, not her daughter. Or not screaming while being raped in a public library. Counsel: Does a part of the brain lag behind? Yes
Lebowitz: Sometimes memories are not stored correctly - for example, only stored as a smell, not as a story. What we call flashbacks. Counsel: Did you observe these in Ms. Carroll? Lebowitz: Yes, when I asked some questions, she squirmed, Mr. Trump's fingers
Lebowitz: Ms. Carroll was re-experience Mr. Trump's fingers in her (pause) Or what she alleges to be Mr. Trump's fingers. Counsel: What are intrusive memories? Lebowitz: They are like flags planted where traumatic memories lie
Lebowitz: Think of a veteran with a panic attack - triggered by the smell from a Vietnamese restaurant. I can make him aware of it. Counsel: Ms. Carroll thought she had died but was still alive. Can you understand?
Lebowitz: This is common among survivors of rape.
Counsel: What does the phrase self-blaming mean? Lebowitz: In sexual assault it is unbelievably common for people to feel it is their fault. One reason is that the experience of being raped is one of losing control. So self-blaming reclaims control Counsel: Let's turn to Ms. Carroll. How has she been negatively impacted?
Lebowitz: Diminishment in her ability to feel good about herself, and lack of intimate romantic life which has led to deep feelings of loss. She blamed herself, she felt she had been stupid
Counsel: How about when Donald Trump came forward to run for President? Lebowitz: It got worse for Ms. Carroll. Then, she got better, a form of exposure therapy. The brain gets to learn, you become less afraid. Ironically, Mr. Trump's run was exposure treatment
Counsel: Is Ms. Carroll resilient? Lebowitz: Yes, she is amazing. Counsel: What explains that? Lebowitz: She had a loving family, rough & tumble play. But after the incident with Mr. Trump, she shut down in the presence of any eligible man, like a storefront gate
Lebowitz: She got on the elevator and an attractive man got on. E. Jean Carroll looked at the ground. Counsel: How does Ms. Carroll's avoidance behavior with eligible men compare to her past? Lebowitz: Her pattern was partnership, then avid dating. She was social
Counsel: What about her going back to Bergdorf's? Lebowitz: She didn't blame the store for the rape. Counsel: What about her liking The Apprentice? Lebowitz: She liked the show, to stop watching it would have revealed something and made her stand out
Counsel: The camp counselor [Cam] could that be the cause? Lebowitz: No, she continued happy interaction. Counsel: What about Les Moonves? Lebowitz: Same... And John Johnson, there was a lot of respect there. Counsel: And violence. Could that be the cause?
Lebowitz: There was still intimate relations after the marriage. Counsel: How can we make sense of the impact of Mr Trump's assault? Lebowitz: She blamed herself Counsel: No further questions Judge Kaplan: Morning break. Thread will continue - off to other cases
They're back. Roberta Kaplan: Your Honor, we need to know about the defense case. Tacopina: I will be making a call at lunch time. Roberta Kaplan: We've prefer to know at the beginning of the lunch break
Judge Kaplan: Cross examination, Mr. Seigel. Trump's lawyer Chad Seigel: Dr Lebowitz, you are getting paid $600 an hour, correct? Lebowitz: Yes. Seigel: On direct you testified about the supposed ways Ms. Carroll has been negatively impacted - it's not an opinion?
Judge Kaplan: That's compound. Seigel: OK. Ms Carroll - no, I'm sorry, Dr Lebowitz - you are simply assuming it happened, correct? Lebowitz: I'm focused on consequences. Seigel: You are assuming the rape occurred? Lebowitz: I have no opinion on that.
Seigel: To be clear, you have no independent knowledge whether that alleged sexual assault took place or not? Lebowitz: Right. Seigel: If she made it all up, it would be a problem for your theory, right? Lebowitz: Yes.
Seigel: You are familiar with malingering - meaning lying? Lebowitz: Yes. Seigel: Ms. Carroll has a vested interest in the outcome of this case, right? Lebowitz: I'm not sure what you mean. Seigel: She may have presented her symptom to benefit her case?
Lebowitz: I don't think so. She is adverse to being symptomatic. Seigel: You took Ms. Carroll's word for it? Carroll's lawyer: Objection. Judge Kaplan: Sustained. Inner City Press @innercitypress · 6h Seigel: Aren't there objective psychological tests? Lebowitz: Some are not accurate. Seigel: You didn't use any tests. Lebowitz: The so-called objective test does not address flashbacks.
Seigel: In her book she says, I rarely thought of this. This is inconsistent with what she told you, right? Lebowitz: No. Seigel: I direct your attention to line 26 -- Judge Kaplan: Here is an objection. Carroll's lawyer: The quote must go further. Seigel: OK
Judge Kaplan: Mr. Seigel, you're going to have to get thing together. This has been going on for 7 days. Seigal: Dr Lebowitz, do you see -- Judge Kaplan: Just read it! We all know she can read it. I don't know what you are doing. Just get with it
Seigel: Is it your position these two statements, I rarely thought of it, are consistent? Lebowitz: Yes. It is all consistent. Seigel: What you mean by is that people may say different things in different settings, correct?
Lebowitz: She doesn't want to seem hurt Seigel: I want to know you Ms. Carroll's October 14, 2022 deposition... She said, "I would have said, I rarely think of it." You'd agree that a deposition is not the same as a courtroom? Carroll's lawyer: Objection! Judge Kaplan: Sustained.
Seigel: Dr Lebowitz, are you aware Ms. Carroll described herself as a big fan of The Apprentice? Lebowitz: She said she appreciated the artistry of the show. Seigel: But she told you she didn't watch the show a lot - Carroll's lawyer: Objection. Asked and answered
Seigel: Dr Lebowitz, there is no diagnosis to support Ms. Carroll's allegation in this case, is there? Carroll's lawyer: Your Honor, could we have a sidebar? Judge Kaplan: OK. [Sidebar ensues]
They are back. Seigel: Are you aware Ms. Carroll said on a podcast that it may not have been her Donald Trump allegation that causd her romantic shutdown? Lebowitz: I think she said in the podcast that one creates one's own luck.
Seigel: Dr. Lebowitz, do you recall - Judge Kaplan: Not a memory quiz. Seigel: OK, I direct your attention to lines 3 though 10. [ Pause ] Judge Kaplan: Folks - tempus fugit. I apologize for the Latin. It means, time flies.
Seigel: Dr Lebowitz, when you were deposed in March, you could not provide any examples of reactions that would be inconsistent with being raped, right? Dr Lebowitz: There are a lot of negatives in that. Carroll's lawyer: Can we get a line number?
Seigel: Line 2. Seigel: You have no independent knowledge if the alleged rape occurred? Lebowitz: I do not. Seigel: Nothing further. Judge Kaplan: Redirect? No. OK, 2 pm folks.
They're back. Carroll's counsel: This afternoon we'll have E. Jean Carroll's sister and Natasha Stoynoff. Tomorrow we'll have Carol Martin.. Tacopina: Our proposed witness, there have been health issues...
Tacopina: They proposed putting in the Billy Bush tape, or the - Judge Kaplan: We all know what you're talking about. Tacopina: They shouldn't play it twice. Judge Kaplan: You don't contest that it is authentic, do you? I consider only serious objections.
Jury entering! Judge Kaplan: Ladies and gentlemen, given what I've heard from the lawyers, and bearing in mind I'm not in the insurance writing business, you can expect to get the case early next week.
Judge Kaplan: Re-direct. Carroll's lawyer: Let's return to Ms. Carroll's response... Lebowitz: She got a gun and learned to shoot. She was afraid. Ongoing fear. Carroll's lawyer: Mr. Seigel asked you about psychological instruments... Lebowitz: There are tests
Lebowitz: Like the one where they ask are you sleeping, are you drinking, yes or no questions. There are others, I'm not sure why they are called objective. You can still present yourself the way you want to. In a long conversation it's harder.
Counsel: Have you dealt with people who exaggerated? Lebowitz: Yes. I used to come up in the Veterans Administration, to get PTSD benefits. Others were hyperbolic. Do you have a follow up question? Counsel: No, thanks. Does Ms. Carroll exaggerate or minimize?
Lebowitz: Ms. Carroll understands adversity. Counsel: Mr. Seigel asked you about malingering... Do you have an opinion if she is? Long sidebar ensues - then jury sent out of courtroom so they can read back Seigel's questioning about Carroll's "vested interest"
Judge Kaplan: Mr. Seigel, the opinion you are trying to exclude you yourself elicited this morning. The answer you don't want to hear you already elicited, isn't that true? And if not, why not? Seigel: I only asked if why may have malingered.
Judge Kaplan: I'll try to suppress my inherent bent toward irony... The issue here is not what you were talking about - what you are trying to exclude, is already in. Seigel: I didn't open the door - Judge Kaplan: We're not talking about that. The door is closed
Judge Kaplan: ... and the horse is out of the barn. Tacopina: I think you are right, Your Honor. Even a broken clock is right two times a day (laughs) Judge Kaplan: You win, Mr. Seigel. Tacopina: It doesn't feel like a win. Judge Kaplan: Let's get the jury
Jury entering! Judge Kaplan: Re-cross. Seigel: You have no direct knowledge of if the rape happened or not, do you? Lebowitz: I do not. Seigel: No more questions. Judge Kaplan: Next witness. It's Candy Carroll, E. Jean Carroll's sister.
Carroll's counsel: Where did you grow up? Candy Carroll: Fort Wayne, Indiana. My mother was Betty McKenny (sp)... Counsel: What was your mother's profession? Candy: She was a homemaker. Our father ran a store
Counsel: How would you describe your family environment when it came to sharing negative things? Candy Carroll: We were private. And always project a good positive attitude. My dad would tell me, Smile. My mother was behind it all the way.
Candy: When Jean graduated, she want to Madison, Wisconsin. We were no longer sharing a room, so we became friends. Later, we worked together on the Hunter S. Thompson biography. We created a website I curated of her advice columns
After short direct, Judge Kaplan: Cross examination? Trump's lawyer Brandt: Just a few questions. For how many years did you share a bedroom with E. Jean? Candy Carroll: 14 years or so. Brandt: Then you stayed in touch, & in the 1990s you were in daily contact Yes
Brandt: And the first you heard of any alleged sexual assault by Donald Trump was by email? Candy Carroll: Yes. It was a link. Brandt: No further questions. Judge Kaplan: Let's take our break. 15 minutes.
We're back. Judge Kaplan: Next witness. It's Natasha Stoynoff. Carroll's lawyer: Where were you working in 1992?
Stoynoff: In Toronto. I write for the Toronto Sun. Counsel: And in 1997? Stoynoff: I moved to New York. I was on contract with People magazine.
Counsel: What did you work on at People magazine? Stoynoff: Mostly entertainment. Counsel: Were you even on a beat involving Donald Trump? Stoynoff: I was on the Trump beat starting in 2003 or 2004, The Apprentice. I covered his wedding to Melania, at Mar-a-Lago.
Stoynoff: I did a story on Ivanka's wedding, I can't remember to whom. Counsel: Did cover his first year anniversary and birth of Baron? Stoynoff: Yes, he was married to Melania (voice cracks) Counsel: Do you need a moment? Stoynoff: No, I'm okay.
Counsel: Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 17. Stoynoff: It's a group photo at Mar-a-Lago. That's me. And that's Donald Trump, and Melania. Counsel: How did you do your interviews? Stoynoff: Around the photo shoots. Then try to get them together, for some banter
Counsel: Was there a break between interviews? What happened? Stoynoff: Melania had just finished a photo shoot by the pool. She went up to change. Donald said, come see this great room with a painting. He led the way. I followed him down a hall...
Counsel: What happened next? Stoynoff (sobs) I'm thinking, really nice room. The door shuts behind me. He pushes me against the wall and starts kissing me. I tried to push him away. Counsel: Had anything been said? Stoynoff: No. Not that I recall.
Stoynoff: Then the butler came in and Mr Trump stopped. I gave him a Get me out of here look. We went back. Trump said, "You know we're going to have an affair. Don't forget what Marla said, Best Sex I Ever Had. We'll go to Peter Luger's & have an affair
Carroll's counsel: At some point did Marla return - oh, sorry, did Melania return? Stoynoff: Yes. I continued the interview. It was not easy. I had my questions with me. I had to go back with my work down. I was an auto-pilot.
Carroll's counsel: Do you vote? Stoynoff: I have voted 3 times. Twice for President Obama. I don't remember the third. Carroll's counsel: Did you vote for Hillary Clinton? Stoynoff: No. Counsel: Have you voted for conservative candidates in Canada? Stoynoff: Yes
Counsel: Were you happy or sad when Mr. Trump was voted out? Stoynoff: Happy. Counsel: Has Ms Carroll interviewed you? Stoynoff: In the summer of 2020... Counsel: About? Stoynoff: The incident. My life. Counsel: Did it change your recollection? Stoynoff: No
Stoynoff: I saw Anderson Cooper ask him if he had kissed any woman without consent and he said no. I thought, voters should know. Counsel: May I approach? Stoynoff: It's the Access Hollywood clip that you showed me. Counsel: Plaintiff's 25-T, a transcript.
Counsel: We offer 25 and 25-T. Tacopina: Preserving previous objections. Judge Kaplan: No authenticity problem? Tacopina: No. Carroll's counsel: I have copies of the transcript to hand out. Judge Kaplan: Go ahead.
Carroll's counsel: Let's play Plaintiff's 25. "I moved on her heavily, like a bitch. Now she's got the phony t*ts" "My man!" "I just start kissing them... When you're a star, you can do anything. Grab 'em by the p*ssy" "C'mon shorty" "Always when you don't fall"
Carroll's counsel: Did you see this when it aired? Stoynoff: Yes. I was sick to my stomach and a little bit of relief. I thought, Oh, he does this to a lot of women. The horrifying part (sob) is I worried because I didn't say anything at the time, others were hurt
Carroll's counsel: Is this the debate? Anderson Cooper? We don't have to play it again. How did you feel? Stoynoff: People magazine asked if I wanted to write about it. They knew. I said, Let's see how he answers in the debate. He lied and I thought, You liar.
Judge Kaplan: Cross examination? Tacopina: Ms. Stoynoff, you have no legal claim against Donald Trump? Stoynoff: I do not. Tacopina: No further questions. Roberta Kaplan: We're going to play portions of Mr. Trump's deposition. Judge Kaplan: Go ahead
[Playing for jury] Q: In the course of your married life and your dating life did you have occasion to buy gifts? Trump: Not much. Q: For your wives? and woman you were dating? Trump: Probable.
Q: In your first marriage, you saw women outside of the marriage? Trump: I don't know. Q: Did you go to Bergdorf Goodman? Trump: Rarely. Almost never. Q: What did you shop for? Trump: I don't know.
[Still from deposition, played for jury. Trump in blue suit, light blue tie] Q: Have you read Ms. Carroll's book? Trump: Never saw it. Q: You responded to the excerpt in NY Magazine - here's a tweet. You said, I've never met her. Book should be in fiction section
Q: Do you recall your interview with The Hill? Trump: Yes. I think it was in the Oval Office. Q: You said, She's not my type. Trump: Yes... You're talking about a major store. It's just made up. Judge Kaplan: We're going to break for the day. Counsel, stay.
Jury leaves. Judge Kaplan: We should finish after lunch tomorrow. Summations - what are you thoughts on duration? Ms. Kaplan? Roberta Kaplan: Two hours for closing, an hour rebuttal. Tacopina: Two and a half hours, give or take.
Judge Kaplan: I'll have the draft charge 8 am Monday morning. We'll have the charge conference here at 9. Then summations 10 am Monday, shorten the lunch and get them done before we're done for the day. The charge will be an hour, on Tuesday and they deliberate
Judge Kaplan: Mr. Tacopina, you got that? Tacopina: Yes. Judge Kaplan: Mr. Seigel, you were rising? Seigel: We object and move to strike Ms Stoynoff's testimony. Judge Kaplan: Denied. Jury could reasonably find there was a sexual assault, actual or attempt. I conclude Yes
There will be more on May 4 - then closings set for May 8.
More on Substack here.
Watch this site.
Court art: Tacopina and Judge Kaplan, courtesy to Inner City Press from Elizabeth Williams
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